[ oh thank god i can use this journal now and be free from the swapping... anyway, welcome to the lab!! only the front part/main area and not the back. ]
I've overheard of a lot of discussion about rituals and how the wishes or desires of people may be part of a process in order to fuel something.
[ pardon me if i'm too lazy to immediately grab the exact thread but you know. ]
What if there is no ritual but that this is just part of the process? Like the Ouroboros. The infection and the corruption is just part, or a byproduct, of the wishes and desires being fulfilled?
Anaxagoras listens closely regardless, particularly as Fran mentions the discussions, then continues to elucidate on his personal thoughts regarding the Ouroboros. ]
...Personally, I never quite thought that there was a ritual, per say.
[ Which whoops he did not get to say, but that is simply because he thinks that the supernatural entity involved did not intend for that. It seems, though, it may be plausible that it can be something beyond what he might have fathomed. ]
If it were simply all part of a loop - one that must be "sustained" by the infection and corruption existing due to wishes as well as desires being fulfilled...then, that would make sense.
Of course, that would mean the key to shattering this whole set up would be to find the weak point in the loop. Whether by exploiting it, or using it against itself.
[ Or something else entirely...it'd be interesting to ensure this Ouroboros consumes itself. ]
[ sometimes people think of rituals since it sounds like the best way to address something weird like this and that's fine! fran is just a creature of science (and fake science) so he will grab onto what's more ""grounded"". ]
And given what sort of cycle that we're dealing with, it's not easy to think of where the weak point would be. [ you know, as if any sort of metaphorical cycle can be broken so simply in the first place. ] If the base of its existence is due to wishes and desires—then there's no way that can be taken away. Everyone will have something that they want no matter how big or small.
...and I'm sure that wishing it to stop might have already been tried but someone.
[ who knows what the results of that might have been, too. ]
[ Irony being if Anaxagoras stuck to his original school of thought it'd have been easier for him to think opposite as he does now...
Maybe it is also admittedly a sciencey thing.
...also it'd be funny if they arrived here because someone wished to stop this, but alas. ]
I still feel the problem can be resolved if we can turn its energy against itself. Though, of course, not by 'wishing' for it stop. If only instead whenever it goes to reach out and make its appearance with those hands for example it can be turned against...but, I do imagine that while it'd weaken it greatly, the 'source' would likely be still left behind to take care of.
[ Wishing is probably like the effect like pouring gasoline on a fire because it is a liquid. ]
Instead, in order to break it down completely, the energetic component must be properly disrupted before it can restart all over again. Perhaps a way to isolate it...
[ this is what you get for falling into the majority!!! stand your ground anaxa!!! don't be a sheep!!!
though also. imagine if they were all just here because someone wished them to stop this whole thing. for now, though, they both get to do a thinky. ]
...like a way to create a situation where the hands would appear but without a target for them to grab? It's currently the most obvious way that we have to interact with "it" if we have any hopes to isolate it. [ hmmm. ] Except we'd have to figure out a way for us to move while the hands have grabbed a hold of us.
But I agree that if we can find the "source" of this, it'll make moving forward a lot easier and give us some direction as how to best interfere with the cycle.
[ What majority!! It means he's thinking against it as it is and opposite as a sheep...not even considering it could be rituals...
Okay but that would be funny and suck if that were true and Anaxagoras would probably want to ratshake that person into oblivion.
...As he considers this, including regarding finding the 'source', he thinks up some ideas right away. ]
There must be a way to force them out without anyone dying, since they exist in some form of space. There are two methods I've thought up:
One: Make it very convincing to even that thing someone has passed, when they certainly haven't.
[ There are things available to place people under a suspended state of death, after all. ]
Or two: Force them out by simply bruteforce. They exist somewhere, so it should be possible to do it in another manner.
Though, that would require likely tracking them down and forcing ourselves onto more territory that they control even more acutely. [ ...Oh but damn he's right about the grabbing part, so he pauses, thinking. ] Even so, it's a shame that the hands are able to immediately act so quickly to restrain many individuals at once.
...however, we have witnessed that the restraining process can be defied.
They can be affected. If we're able to apply a heavier effect en masse upon them at once - similar to what Ramuda did but far more effective - then stalling and then counter-attacking shouldn't be an impossibility.
If we were able to trick them into grabbing onto someone who was as close to death as possible without dying, might hold something there. [ there are certainly enough people here who understand poisons to figure something out. also. fran's lab. ] Or, maybe, if we could propose some other way into tricking it to appear.
[ since the times that they've seen the hands appear is when they've come to "collect" something. ]
It'd worry about whoever the hands latched onto if we aren't able to come up with a way to remove them during this process. We'd be asking someone to sacrifice themselves.
[ which fran is not a fan of. ]
I wonder if the reason why Ramuda was able to resist them for so long was because of some sort of involvement with the hands—or this "source". The hands were notably interested in grabbing at his mic before the rest of him.
[ ...Anaxagoras has no problem with suggesting himself as bait. To the point he initially doesn't really think twice.
If it helps, it might work, right? He couldn't ask anyone else to do it. Then again, maybe he should be a bit careful about that, considering.
He reconsiders that idea, because maybe he might have had some character growth about reckless tendencies. ]
Or trick it to holding onto the 'person' that appeared close to dying, but was instead some kind of decoy inanimate object. Yet it has the bonus quality of having whatever it is that touches it stuck to it for a time.
Particularly after it is tricked via this other method. As, what is likely obvious, that I wouldn't wish to sacrifice anyone else. I could never ask someone else to do so in the first place.
[ ... ]
I hadn't considered the idea that he had an agreement with the source as another reason he lingered longer than the others. Though, I wonder why they grabbed at his mic instead of the rest of his body - to stop his attempts, perhaps?
If only we could create a "person" without it being a real "person", huh? I'm sure it would solve a lot of our problems.
[ HE IS JOKING. THIS IS A JOKE!!! EVEN IF FRAN THEORETICALLY COULD DO THIS!!!! ]
The mic was essential to his abilities, wasn't it?
Perhaps it's linked in the same way as any of the other desires that are granted—to take back what was given in order to start the cycle once again. The conservation in energy and such.
[ if it could be applied to such things like this? ]
I was thinking that the person-shaped being would be something like a mannequin. Then, if you could apply some magic to it or other aspects, as in store blood inside of it...
[ Anaxagoras is saying this with an extremely serious face as Fran is flat-out joking, I'm very sorry for this and who he is. At least he isn't strictly talking about a pure alchemical process in refining a persona-shaped individual-esque lifeform, and that is for the best.
And then he looks like he has a potential, small eureka moment as something else comes to mind. ]
...Hm, that being said, while that makes sense, it does remind me of something else.
When Thancred and I were questioning Ramuda, it seems that the entity reacted adversely to it. I believe understanding the process even further can help glean more weakpoints in a general manner. It hadn't exactly occurred to myself just now until you pointed this out.
Which is, despite our still grim situation, something that I feel could be good news.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
week 2, monday
Indeed, let's get to it.
[ and not to waste any time: ]
You're familiar with the Ouroboros, correct?
no subject
At the least where they are it's easy to focus - lab settings are perfect for thinking hours. ]
You're correct, I am.
[ This is very ironic and funny that he's mentioning this... ]
...Naturally, I have to wonder next how this may be connected.
no subject
I've overheard of a lot of discussion about rituals and how the wishes or desires of people may be part of a process in order to fuel something.
[ pardon me if i'm too lazy to immediately grab the exact thread but you know. ]
What if there is no ritual but that this is just part of the process? Like the Ouroboros. The infection and the corruption is just part, or a byproduct, of the wishes and desires being fulfilled?
no subject
Anaxagoras listens closely regardless, particularly as Fran mentions the discussions, then continues to elucidate on his personal thoughts regarding the Ouroboros. ]
...Personally, I never quite thought that there was a ritual, per say.
[ Which whoops he did not get to say, but that is simply because he thinks that the supernatural entity involved did not intend for that. It seems, though, it may be plausible that it can be something beyond what he might have fathomed. ]
If it were simply all part of a loop - one that must be "sustained" by the infection and corruption existing due to wishes as well as desires being fulfilled...then, that would make sense.
Of course, that would mean the key to shattering this whole set up would be to find the weak point in the loop. Whether by exploiting it, or using it against itself.
[ Or something else entirely...it'd be interesting to ensure this Ouroboros consumes itself. ]
no subject
[ sometimes people think of rituals since it sounds like the best way to address something weird like this and that's fine! fran is just a creature of science (and fake science) so he will grab onto what's more ""grounded"". ]
And given what sort of cycle that we're dealing with, it's not easy to think of where the weak point would be. [ you know, as if any sort of metaphorical cycle can be broken so simply in the first place. ] If the base of its existence is due to wishes and desires—then there's no way that can be taken away. Everyone will have something that they want no matter how big or small.
...and I'm sure that wishing it to stop might have already been tried but someone.
[ who knows what the results of that might have been, too. ]
no subject
Maybe it is also admittedly a sciencey thing.
...also it'd be funny if they arrived here because someone wished to stop this, but alas. ]
I still feel the problem can be resolved if we can turn its energy against itself. Though, of course, not by 'wishing' for it stop. If only instead whenever it goes to reach out and make its appearance with those hands for example it can be turned against...but, I do imagine that while it'd weaken it greatly, the 'source' would likely be still left behind to take care of.
[ Wishing is probably like the effect like pouring gasoline on a fire because it is a liquid. ]
Instead, in order to break it down completely, the energetic component must be properly disrupted before it can restart all over again. Perhaps a way to isolate it...
no subject
though also. imagine if they were all just here because someone wished them to stop this whole thing. for now, though, they both get to do a thinky. ]
...like a way to create a situation where the hands would appear but without a target for them to grab? It's currently the most obvious way that we have to interact with "it" if we have any hopes to isolate it. [ hmmm. ] Except we'd have to figure out a way for us to move while the hands have grabbed a hold of us.
But I agree that if we can find the "source" of this, it'll make moving forward a lot easier and give us some direction as how to best interfere with the cycle.
no subject
Okay but that would be funny and suck if that were true and Anaxagoras would probably want to ratshake that person into oblivion.
...As he considers this, including regarding finding the 'source', he thinks up some ideas right away. ]
There must be a way to force them out without anyone dying, since they exist in some form of space. There are two methods I've thought up:
One: Make it very convincing to even that thing someone has passed, when they certainly haven't.
[ There are things available to place people under a suspended state of death, after all. ]
Or two: Force them out by simply bruteforce. They exist somewhere, so it should be possible to do it in another manner.
Though, that would require likely tracking them down and forcing ourselves onto more territory that they control even more acutely. [ ...Oh but damn he's right about the grabbing part, so he pauses, thinking. ] Even so, it's a shame that the hands are able to immediately act so quickly to restrain many individuals at once.
...however, we have witnessed that the restraining process can be defied.
They can be affected. If we're able to apply a heavier effect en masse upon them at once - similar to what Ramuda did but far more effective - then stalling and then counter-attacking shouldn't be an impossibility.
no subject
[ since the times that they've seen the hands appear is when they've come to "collect" something. ]
It'd worry about whoever the hands latched onto if we aren't able to come up with a way to remove them during this process. We'd be asking someone to sacrifice themselves.
[ which fran is not a fan of. ]
I wonder if the reason why Ramuda was able to resist them for so long was because of some sort of involvement with the hands—or this "source". The hands were notably interested in grabbing at his mic before the rest of him.
no subject
If it helps, it might work, right? He couldn't ask anyone else to do it. Then again, maybe he should be a bit careful about that, considering.
He reconsiders that idea, because maybe he might have had some character growth about reckless tendencies. ]
Or trick it to holding onto the 'person' that appeared close to dying, but was instead some kind of decoy inanimate object. Yet it has the bonus quality of having whatever it is that touches it stuck to it for a time.
Particularly after it is tricked via this other method. As, what is likely obvious, that I wouldn't wish to sacrifice anyone else. I could never ask someone else to do so in the first place.
[ ... ]
I hadn't considered the idea that he had an agreement with the source as another reason he lingered longer than the others. Though, I wonder why they grabbed at his mic instead of the rest of his body - to stop his attempts, perhaps?
no subject
[ HE IS JOKING. THIS IS A JOKE!!! EVEN IF FRAN THEORETICALLY COULD DO THIS!!!! ]
The mic was essential to his abilities, wasn't it?
Perhaps it's linked in the same way as any of the other desires that are granted—to take back what was given in order to start the cycle once again. The conservation in energy and such.
[ if it could be applied to such things like this? ]
no subject
[ Anaxagoras is saying this with an extremely serious face as Fran is flat-out joking, I'm very sorry for this and who he is. At least he isn't strictly talking about a pure alchemical process in refining a persona-shaped individual-esque lifeform, and that is for the best.
And then he looks like he has a potential, small eureka moment as something else comes to mind. ]
...Hm, that being said, while that makes sense, it does remind me of something else.
When Thancred and I were questioning Ramuda, it seems that the entity reacted adversely to it. I believe understanding the process even further can help glean more weakpoints in a general manner. It hadn't exactly occurred to myself just now until you pointed this out.
Which is, despite our still grim situation, something that I feel could be good news.